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PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/21/2008 1:46:54 PM
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tomhillbilly
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I wanted to continue examining a very interesting question from another thread created by chatter TORCHHEART. Their thread was quickly closed to pro-life 'answers to their question'. I thought this a good opportunity to give pro-life people as well as pro-choice and everyone an opportunity to wiegh in on this question.
the question: how do christians who are pro-choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation to their faith?
personal stance and opinion: I am pro-life. Being a man i also realize i am "no-choice" since it ultimately is decided by women.
answer: dehumanization.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/21/2008 5:14:57 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 318
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
I wanted to continue examining a very interesting question from another thread created by chatter TORCHHEART. Their thread was quickly closed to pro-life 'answers to their question'. I thought this a good opportunity to give pro-life people as well as pro-choice and everyone an opportunity to wiegh in on this question.
the question: how do christians who are pro-choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation to their faith?
personal stance and opinion: I am pro-life. Being a man i also realize i am "no-choice" since it ultimately is decided by women.
answer: dehumanization.
The act to abort an unbirthed child is not as simple as murder. Oh, it is murder, but murder is just the tip of the iceberg. Murder is just the most obvious and unforgiving part of abortion.
Abortion is also lack of trust and faith -- a lack of trust that God will car for you, and a lack of faith that God is in control and sovereign over ALL LIFE, even life in the womb, which He has sovereignly placed in your womb (even by rape, I believe). Adoption is always an option, is it not?
I believe to call one self, "pro-choice," is both inaccurate and selfish. You are pro-choice, really? Pro-MY-choice, you mean. Because, in fact, you are taking MILLIONS of choices away from the child whom's life you are ending before he or she is birthed. You are STEALING all of the choices that unbirthed, underdeveloped child would make in his or her life had you allowed him or her to come to full term, and make those choices. "Pro-choice" is a lie. The truth is that people see abortion as, A-okay, are pro-self, and pro-self-choice. If he or she was pro-choice, then he or she would protect the millions of choices yet to be made by an unbirthed child, and abstain from abortion entirely.
How a person can look to God, the maker and redeemer of all life, and have the life a child ended inside of themself... and redeem it under the call to being "pro-choice" is beyond me. That is, it doesn't add up, it doesn't follow.
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/22/2008 5:32:03 PM
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TragicWhispers
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I am a Christian, and I will admit before anything else that this is one of those things that I struggle with a great deal. I am not pro-choice, but I have a hard time calling myself pro-life for several reasons. I struggle most everyday with this issue because it is so much in the forefront of the present day with a presidential election going on and so on.
I disagree with using abortion as a form of birth control or even gender selection. If someone chooses to have sex before marriage, then there are better ways to have birth control. Not any of them are 100% affective unless you just decide not to have sex. That's the only one. That being said, I can think of situations where an abortion should be an open option for doctors. If the baby's life is in danger, if the mother's life is in danger, or perhaps even both, if all other medical options have been taken into consideration, then shouldn't it be even open for discussion of that is truly what the parents want if it means the mother may lose her life and the baby could die as well? This is where I struggle. This is where it pains me to come to a solution.
If it is legal, then it should be left for only high risk situations, not as an option for birth control. Here, is where I struggle again.
This is a country not under the banner of Christianity, but it is under the banner of the freedom of religion. You see--this is where I struggle again even more than before. My reasons for not believing in abortion as a from of birth control is because of my belief in God and that a fetus is indeed a person. I am a Christian. That is my religious choice. How can I walk up to someone that by the freedom of religion offered in this country chooses to worship another god, follow another path and tell them with a straight face that they have no right to abortion because I think it is wrong based upon a religion that they do not even follow? That is where I struggle very, very much so. I struggle with that part of it.
Am I pro-choice? No, not really. Am I pro-life? I suppose you could say that I am except in very extreme cases. In that sense, I think it should be highly, highly regulated.
I have a problem trying to enforce morals that I have based upon my religion. For example, I don't agree with sex before marriage. But, I couldn't support a law that banned it either. I know you may not agree with this, but I hope, I really hope, you see where this is coming from.
SuperManda
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/22/2008 5:54:19 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7602
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
This is a country not under the banner of Christianity, but it is under the banner of the freedom of religion. You see--this is where I struggle again even more than before. My reasons for not believing in abortion as a from of birth control is because of my belief in God and that a fetus is indeed a person. I am a Christian. That is my religious choice. How can I walk up to someone that by the freedom of religion offered in this country chooses to worship another god, follow another path and tell them with a straight face that they have no right to abortion because I think it is wrong based upon a religion that they do not even follow? That is where I struggle very, very much so. I struggle with that part of it.
Am I pro-choice? No, not really. Am I pro-life? I suppose you could say that I am except in very extreme cases. In that sense, I think it should be highly, highly regulated.
I have a problem trying to enforce morals that I have based upon my religion. For example, I don't agree with sex before marriage. But, I couldn't support a law that banned it either. I know you may not agree with this, but I hope, I really hope, you see where this is coming from.
There was a time that considering an African American as a 'person' was considered a personal belief; thankfully, a number of Christians also considered it a moral imperative.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/22/2008 6:02:41 PM
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tomhillbilly
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interesting posts folks, and welcome to the forums tragicwhispers
i understand your struggles being such a deep and troubling issue
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/22/2008 8:54:57 PM
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tomhillbilly
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yes cappuccino non-personhood is certainly a major argument in justifying this position. Ive encountered many people that say they do not believe an "embryo or fetus or whatever other terms they have used" is "life" as they judge it and is justified to be terminated.
to your question how can one say "well, i personally find murder immoral,but its not my choice to make"? Mostly what ive heard in this area is people saying that they dont feel they have the right to make the choice for anyone else. Im skeptical about what all this really means and it seems there are deeper implications.
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pro-choice and Christian - 11/22/2008 9:54:01 PM
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Roberta_
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I am pro-life. I vote pro-life.
quote:
I have a problem trying to enforce morals that I have based upon my religion. For example, I don't agree with sex before marriage. But, I couldn't support a law that banned it either. I know you may not agree with this, but I hope, I really hope, you see where this is coming from.
Hi TragicWhispers. I know a lot of really solid Christians who vote the way you do. I don't view them as less of a Christian because of it.
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RE: pro-choice and Christian - 11/24/2008 7:37:15 AM
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Rumely
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The thing is, all rules and regulations and laws are a means of imposing someone's opinion of what ought to be on others. I think many hide behind the notion of not wanting to impose their views on others. By itself, this is a nonsensical argument. I would like for people to think it through at least enough to say why this particular issue should not be imposed upon, or why they feel that this particular issue is such that their personal convictions do not compel them to involve themselves in some way.
All rules, regulations, and laws are based on someone's values, morals, and perspectives and imposed on others. They may be based on personal, religious, or philosophical values. Even logic generally starts with certain assumptions and ultimately arbitrarily set variables. Very little in the legal/social/political realm can be reduced to purely mathematically absolute calculations.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 8:56:27 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2490
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
I wanted to continue examining a very interesting question from another thread created by chatter TORCHHEART. Their thread was quickly closed to pro-life 'answers to their question'. I thought this a good opportunity to give pro-life people as well as pro-choice and everyone an opportunity to wiegh in on this question.
the question: how do christians who are pro-choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation to their faith?
personal stance and opinion: I am pro-life. Being a man i also realize i am "no-choice" since it ultimately is decided by women.
answer: dehumanization.
Greetings
quote:
the question: how do christians who are pro-choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation to their faith?
There are no justifications
Ex 20:13 "Do not murder.
This principal below applies to more than just food
9 However watch out that your mastery of the situation does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 You have this "knowledge"; but suppose someone with a weak conscience sees you sitting, eating a meal in the temple ….. “of an idol.
Won't he be built up "wrongly".... to eat .."this food+ = ( to “say”… it is ok to murder because the law says it is) ….which has “been sacrificed= (legalism).. to idols? = (selfishness)
11 Thus by your "knowledge" this weak person is destroyed, this brother for whom the Messiah died ;( by giving them the permission to choose to murder)
.........12 and so, ...when you sin..... "against" the brothers "by wounding their conscience".... when it is weak, …….you are ... sinning against the Messiah!
13 To sum up, if food will be a snare for my brother, I will never eat meat again, lest I cause my brother to sin.
Ro 14:13 - Show Context
Therefore, let's stop passing judgment on each other! Instead, make this "one" judgment - ...not to put...... a stumbling block.... or a snare..... in a brother's way
quote:
the question: how do christians who are pro-choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation to their faith?
There are no justifications
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 9:39:46 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3168
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From: my mom by God
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Christians sin and have poor doctrines and theologies so it is possible to be pro-choice and christian. However, that does not excuse that fact that abortion is sin.
When a pregnancy threatens the life of the mother, I believe the stats are 99.9% of the babies are not viable, they would not survive to term.
95% of ALL abortions are for convienence. the other 5% is for rape and incest and life of the mother. Lets be real, abortion is because someone did not ant to accept the results of their actions.
If abortion is a rights issue, and I believe it is, then why do we consider one individual's rights over another? The mother's over the baby's?
Wouldn;t you consider a mother willing to kill their own babies a a societal sickness? I would.
When does life begin? Look at it this way. When those two cells combine at conception, that cell group will develop into a person. If the two cells coming together that formed you were aborted, you would not exist.
It is that simple. No other explanation ( excuse ) needed. Life begins at conception. Without conception, no life exists.
The commandment is..do no murder. Murder is taking the life of an innocent. Is there anyone more innocent than a fetus?
Unwanted babies. I don't know the stats but I bet few people actually plan a pregnancy. If you are having sex...you want a baby.
Its that simple. If you do not want a baby, do not have sex. A FYI...sex leads to pregnancies.
Mark 17:1-4
Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come.
17:2
It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.
17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
17:4
If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 1:05:07 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1883
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
I wanted to continue examining a very interesting question from another thread created by chatter TORCHHEART. Their thread was quickly closed to pro-life 'answers to their question'. I thought this a good opportunity to give pro-life people as well as pro-choice and everyone an opportunity to wiegh in on this question.
the question: how do christians who are pro-choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation to their faith?
personal stance and opinion: I am pro-life. Being a man i also realize i am "no-choice" since it ultimately is decided by women.
answer: dehumanization.
YOu know what? Nobody seems to understand that why I created that thread, no matter what I tried to say... even the Mods.
So allow me to clarify it here:
It was NOT to keep people who are anti-abortion from asking questions; it was to keep people who are pro-abortion from being ridiculed for their stance by people who will go out and say that they are "less Christian" or "not Christians at all" because of their view point. Or who would put words in their mouths in an attempt to get their own views across.
It was supposed to be a place where they could say their piece and justify their views without having to be bashed by radicals who won't listen, but simply want to drill their point into the other person's skull.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 1:08:15 PM
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P31W
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quote:
say their piece and justify their views 
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 1:12:53 PM
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TorchHeart
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quote:
Abortion is also lack of trust and faith -- a lack of trust that God will car for you, and a lack of faith that God is in control and sovereign over ALL LIFE, even life in the womb, which He has sovereignly placed in your womb (even by rape, I believe). Adoption is always an option, is it not?
I find this statement interesting, since a good number of people who I meet who are pro-life are also pro-death penalty. And they'll use the Bible to justify both. Romans is frequently quoted to me stating that the death penalty is justifiable because it is something the people who make our laws have decided is a just punishment (and we're not supposed to rebel against those who make our laws).
However, abortion is legal, and ye we rebel against them for considering it legal. We can have it both ways apparently, depending on who's life we deem worthy. Almost as if we were God.
I, personally, am both anti-capital punishment AND anti-abortion. All human life is valuable in my view, no matter who small or how insignificant that person might appear to be, or even how much we might want to see them "get what's coming to them."
That said, I'm willing to at least LISTEN to people on the oposite side of the fence from me and try to understand their views before simply going off half-cocked and self-righteous (as some people might do) and insulting them to their faces.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 1:17:39 PM
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zoebob
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Maybe part of the issue us that the death penalty is a set up punishment. People know that the punishment for certain crimes is the death penalty. They take that risk in getting caught. It's a penalty for a choice they made.
Abortion is not the result of something a baby decides to do that they know death is a consequence.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 1:23:58 PM
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TorchHeart
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
Maybe part of the issue us that the death penalty is a set up punishment. People know that the punishment for certain crimes is the death penalty. They take that risk in getting caught. It's a penalty for a choice they made.
Abortion is not the result of something a baby decides to do that they know death is a consequence.
Yet, it doesn't make either one any more right than the other. I fail to see Christ putting someone to death for any reason; its a decision only God should be allowed to make.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 1:47:33 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7602
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Yet, it doesn't make either one any more right than the other. I fail to see Christ putting someone to death for any reason; its a decision only God should be allowed to make.
No matter what your view on this, there is no comparison between executing a criminal found guilty in a court of law, and intentionally destroying the life of an innocent child - none.
And whatever your concern about criminal punishment in modern times, you cannot deny that God specifically commanded human governments in times past to employ capitol punishment as a punishment for certain crimes - so if you don't like that punishment for a crime, you will have to take that up with God Himself.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 2:07:46 PM
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TorchHeart
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quote:
No matter what your view on this, there is no comparison between executing a criminal found guilty in a court of law, and intentionally destroying the life of an innocent child - none.
Human life is human life. There IS a comparison.
quote:
And whatever your concern about criminal punishment in modern times, you cannot deny that God specifically commanded human governments in times past to employ capitol punishment as a punishment for certain crimes - so if you don't like that punishment for a crime, you will have to take that up with God Himself.
God did command capital punishment for certain crimes. Among them are a child being disobedient to his parents, a woman caught in adultry, and rebelious slaves. Should we be putting these people to death, too?
When Christ came to us, He preached about compassion and mercy. He spoke of turning the other cheek, rather than taking revenge on someone (which capital punishment clearly is). He, Himself, died in a sinful manner when He was innocent so that all of us could be forgiven of sin. Why can't we show that same kind of compassion? I'm not saying not to punish these people. Clearly they need to be pay for their crimes and be isolated from the rest of society.
However, to execute them? That's denying them their life and taking away time when they, themselves, could find Christ. I realize we aren't going to ever see eye-to-eye on this, but I simply see capital punishment as a means of primitive vengence. And two wrongs do not make a right.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 2:49:56 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3439
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
God did command capital punishment for certain crimes. Among them are a child being disobedient to his parents, a woman caught in adultry, and rebelious slaves. Should we be putting these people to death, too?
Oh, He was having a bad day when He said all that. He didn't mean that! It took His Kid being born to teach Him the way it was supposed to be. That's the way it is with us parents: we learn from our kids.
G-d made a mistake. We are smarter today and know better.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
When Christ came to us, He preached about compassion and mercy. He spoke of turning the other cheek, rather than taking revenge on someone (which capital punishment clearly is). He, Himself, died in a sinful manner when He was innocent so that all of us could be forgiven of sin. Why can't we show that same kind of compassion? I'm not saying not to punish these people. Clearly they need to be pay for their crimes and be isolated from the rest of society.
Okay. No more being facetious. Messiah was always there from the beginning. Isaiah called Him Creator and Almighty G-d. Messiah was the One who gave the Torah -- commonly called the Law. Moses saw Him and lived, coming down from the mountain with a face the people could not look upon. G-d said that He never changes. Messiah said the same thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
However, to execute them? That's denying them their life and taking away time when they, themselves, could find Christ. I realize we aren't going to ever see eye-to-eye on this, but I simply see capital punishment as a means of primitive vengence. And two wrongs do not make a right.
Who are you, oh man, to rise up and question G-d?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 3:16:30 PM
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TorchHeart
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
Who are you, oh man, to rise up and question God?
No one is questioning God. I'm questioning the actions of those who claim that killing another human being is God's will, regardless of who that person is. Especially when the example Christ sets for us is in opposition to what is being promoted.
quote:
Isaiah called Him Creator and Almighty G-d. Messiah was the One who gave the Torah -- commonly called the Law.
Hmmm. I thought man was no longer bound to the Law because of Christ.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 3:21:17 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Okay, Torch.  But He is the one who had this written down, and it is His Torah. It is in the Torah He gave. As a person, I don't like capital punishment either, but since G-d had it written, I accept it when it is done according to His instructions. Way too often, it is NOT done according to His instructions.
Also, I am against murder with every cell of my being, but there are times when killing is necessary. Unfortunately.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 3:24:45 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1883
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
I accept it when it is done according to His instructions. Way too often, it is NOT done according to His instructions.
Then why didn't Christ approve of it when He had the chance?
A woman is brought before Him who is about to be stoned for committing adultry (we all know the story). Instead of telling the crowd to condem her to death (as is what the Law orders), He told them that the first among them who had committed no sin could cast the first stone. Everyone walks away. Nobody there was without sin..... except for one man. Jesus Christ. He could've thrown the first stone at this woman, and been completely within His right in the Law, but He didn't.
The Law is not equal to Christ.
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 3:25:14 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7602
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Human life is human life. There IS a comparison.
There is no comparison in terms of the reasons why the lives are taken.
quote:
God did command capital punishment for certain crimes. Among them are a child being disobedient to his parents, a woman caught in adultry, and rebelious slaves. Should we be putting these people to death, too?
Whether we should is irrelevant; that God would command capitol punishment for certain crimes was the question, and as you now acknowledge, He did, so the only choice that remains is for you to acknowledge that He wasn't wrong to have done so.
quote:
When Christ came to us, He preached about compassion and mercy. He spoke of turning the other cheek, rather than taking revenge on someone (which capital punishment clearly is). He, Himself, died in a sinful manner when He was innocent so that all of us could be forgiven of sin. Why can't we show that same kind of compassion? I'm not saying not to punish these people.
Christ did preach compassion; He did not however preach that His Father in heaven was mistaken in having commanded certain punishments, or that such Commandments constituted a revengeful spirit on behalf of His Father.
quote:
Clearly they need to be pay for their crimes and be isolated from the rest of society.
Why? Wouldn't this constitute revenge?
quote:
However, to execute them? That's denying them their life and taking away time when they, themselves, could find Christ. I realize we aren't going to ever see eye-to-eye on this, but I simply see capital punishment as a means of primitive vengence. And two wrongs do not make a right.
Or it could lessen their motivation to seek repentance under the illusion they will have a long life and can repent later, as many are wont to do.
Either way, you are accusing God of seeking 'primitive vengence'; God is neither primitive nor vengeful.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: PRO-CHOICE AND CHRISTIAN: EVERYONE WELCOME - 11/24/2008 3:27:24 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7602
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Then why didn't Christ approve of it when He had the chance?
A woman is brought before Him who is about to be stoned for committing adultry (we all know the story). Instead of telling the crowd to condem her to death (as is what the Law orders), He told them that the first among them who had committed no sin could cast the first stone. Everyone walks away. Nobody there was without sin..... except for one man. Jesus Christ. He could've thrown the first stone at this woman, and been completely within His right in the Law, but He didn't.
I think the more pertinent question is why didn't Jesus simply say, "Execution is wrong?".
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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