quote:

ORIGINAL: HardKnox

Dave,

And, Bible scholars of the "West" have not been doing that for centuries? Maybe your not an anti-West person, though. I'm trying to get at what is supposed to be so novel about this approach. Also, what is a "hebraic mindset" and which "hebraic culture" are we talking about here? The Old Testament spans about 1500 years of history. Are we supposed to believe Hebrews/Israelites/Jews always thought the same and had the same culture through all those times (particularly at those times when they are idolaters or in Babylon or Egypt)? And are we supposed to use a modern Jewish (possibly Eastern European Ashkenazi-type) model for judging NT "judaic" though and culture as if the Middle Ages did not bring about some pretty significant changes in Jewish thinking and culture?

quote:

most scholars have greek mindsets.

quote:

quote:

most scholars have greek mindsets.

What does that mean?

quote:

ORIGINAL: His_will_i_am

quote:

quote:

most scholars have greek mindsets.

What does that mean?

It means that most of today's scholars all come from schools of thought which originate in Greek/Roman styles of thought, not from a Hebraic mindset. Plato was just one pagan philospher which comes to mind which has done untold damage to how the Scriptures are interpretted.

To give an example of the differences of Hebaic and Grecco/Roman schools of thought one only needs to look at death. In the Hebrew mode of thought, including in the days of our Lord, there was no idea that man had an immortal soul. This view comes from Greek/Roman culture and was fused into the Messianic faith.

I'm not promoting a return to Jewish culture at all. But in order to understand many of the principles and teachings of Messiah as those of the first century would have, one needs to understand how the Hebrews thought and what they would have recognized, for our Lord did come to us from Hebrew descent.

quote:

Where do you get your information from.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drussell52

problems with churchI attend a Lutheran church with my wife and teens but am not a member. Also a paid musician there, and write a monthly Hebraic roots column for the church newsletter. The pastor of nearly 2 years, is passive in his seeming battle with me over viewing the Christian faith from a Jewish heritage perspective, and zinged him in our Sunday school forum when talking about Advent traditions. The topic of placing Christmas lights around one's home came up, and when asked about the origin of that tradition, I suggested creation from Genesis. I am not on the extreme that says throw the baby out with the bath water, but find tolerating tradition with pagan roots rather distasteful. Am starting a study group next month, as I need local fllowship from others who may hold a similar view to mine. An ad runs in our local weekly four this study group for 2 weeks, and we'll see what occurs. I value authors like N. T. Wright and Marvin Wilson who of the church, are quite prolific in expressing what I feel within, a wild branch grafted in.. No one from our congregation has responded to my invites to be in the study, but another local pastor is helping me promote it in their congregation and sees this as a gift to the body of believers at large. Prayers please, and any bytes of wisdom appreciated.. (Drussell52)

quote:


It means that most of today's scholars all come from schools of thought which originate in Greek/Roman styles of thought, not from a Hebraic mindset. Plato was just one pagan philospher which comes to mind which has done untold damage to how the Scriptures are interpretted.

To give an example of the differences of Hebaic and Grecco/Roman schools of thought one only needs to look at death. In the Hebrew mode of thought, including in the days of our Lord, there was no idea that man had an immortal soul. This view comes from Greek/Roman culture and was fused into the Messianic faith.

quote:


I'm not promoting a return to Jewish culture at all. But in order to understand many of the principles and teachings of Messiah as those of the first century would have, one needs to understand how the Hebrews thought and what they would have recognized, for our Lord did come to us from Hebrew descent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:


It means that most of today's scholars all come from schools of thought which originate in Greek/Roman styles of thought, not from a Hebraic mindset. Plato was just one pagan philospher which comes to mind which has done untold damage to how the Scriptures are interpretted.

To give an example of the differences of Hebaic and Grecco/Roman schools of thought one only needs to look at death. In the Hebrew mode of thought, including in the days of our Lord, there was no idea that man had an immortal soul. This view comes from Greek/Roman culture and was fused into the Messianic faith.

Sorry, but this is simply not true. There were Jewish sects that held this view in the first century, but this view did not characterize all of first century Judaism, nor did it characterize the Jewish thought of the Rabbis following the Jewish revolt of 70 AD.

quote:


I'm not promoting a return to Jewish culture at all. But in order to understand many of the principles and teachings of Messiah as those of the first century would have, one needs to understand how the Hebrews thought and what they would have recognized, for our Lord did come to us from Hebrew descent.

While I do believe that understanding the Hebraic mindset is very important to understanding the bible, I have found it quite funny that many of those who promote this dismiss the views of scholars who have studied Hebrew and lived in Israel in favor of their own distorted views of what Hebraic thought is. The opinions of posters like Odeliya, who is a natural born Jewish Israeli, are regularly discarded because they don't align with popular idea of what many gentile Messianics believe Hebraic thought is supposed to be. For some posters here, it seems that growing up with the language and culture of the Hebrews and studying the history of the bible isn't enough to qualify one to have a valid opinion on this topic; it is far more important to accept the indoctrination of the Messianic movement regardless of whether those pushing those doctrines have any real experience with the language or culture of the Hebrews. While there are many very good Messianic congregations, there are also a growing number of Messianic congratulations that seem to be crossing lines that Paul warned so strongly against in Galatians. The congregations that view their non-Mesianic brothers sisters in Christ as somehow inferior or less enlightened they themselves are, are the ones to run away from as fast as you can run.

quote:

Benelchi, Interesting you should bring up Galatians. Recently, I had a brief email exchange with an independent Baptist minister who preached on Galatians and his sermons were on line. He took the widely held view in his presentation, that Paul was challenging the Galatians on returning to "the law" and asked would it be possible Paul was challenging the influencers on getting the new converts to adhere to added oral law, such as circumcision and adopting the culture of the religious Jews to cement their salvation? He concurred this was more the case. I let the matter drop rather than ask the reason for not presenting that dynamic within his sermon. We gentiles have a very difficult manner about us thinking We are the new branches as opposed to by God's grace grafted in to the olive tree analogy in Romans. Jesus came for the Jews first and we have generally forgotten that. Our Easters, Christmases, Advents, Lents, Pentecosts were legalized and Christianized y Constantine, not innovations of our Messiah. Yet we conduct ourselves as if they were. We don't tell our kids that Martin Luther in his later years became very adamantly opposed to the Jews but praise him for being the Reformer he was. It's this dynamic of dismissal that is very consternating to me. Reading through Obadiah and the other major/minor prophets recently, I concluded when all is said and done, God is going to rule and reign forever, amen. Well, my gift is to encourage, so may we all and each know the presence of our Savior today in our doings. Later folks. (Drussell)

quote:

Simply do a study of history and the influence of Greek/Roman philosophical modes of thought and their influence on Chuch doctrine and undestanding. You may be surprised to learn how many of 'the founding fathers' actually were influenced more by philosophy than Messianism.

quote:


I teach history and philosophy. That's my profession. And I find much fault in your views of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drussell52

quote:

ORIGINAL: drussell52

problems with churchI attend a Lutheran church with my wife and teens but am not a member. Also a paid musician there, and write a monthly Hebraic roots column for the church newsletter. The pastor of nearly 2 years, is passive in his seeming battle with me over viewing the Christian faith from a Jewish heritage perspective, and zinged him in our Sunday school forum when talking about Advent traditions. The topic of placing Christmas lights around one's home came up, and when asked about the origin of that tradition, I suggested creation from Genesis. I am not on the extreme that says throw the baby out with the bath water, but find tolerating tradition with pagan roots rather distasteful. Am starting a study group next month, as I need local fllowship from others who may hold a similar view to mine. An ad runs in our local weekly four this study group for 2 weeks, and we'll see what occurs. I value authors like N. T. Wright and Marvin Wilson who of the church, are quite prolific in expressing what I feel within, a wild branch grafted in.. No one from our congregation has responded to my invites to be in the study, but another local pastor is helping me promote it in their congregation and sees this as a gift to the body of believers at large. Prayers please, and any bytes of wisdom appreciated.. (Drussell52)

Hello all who read and respond.
My intent was to find sympathizers, not supposed skeptics or those who disagree with this perspective on faith. For the skeptics, I suggest you read the 20 year old text, Our Father Abraham: Hebraic Roots Of The Christian Faith by M. Wilson then tell me where this is in error. If you want a very broad snapshot on this perspective read the article titled Introduction to Things Messianic, by J. K. McKee, at the article database on www.tnnonline.net. Per interest in the mentioned local study, we will be utilizing their workbook bearing same title which is more in depth compared to the referenced article. Jesus was Jewish, born to Jewish parents, living in a Jewish village, and learned Jewish custom and culture of his day. I suppose to what degree He adhered to Torah is opened for discussion, but we of the North American continent think for example He always argued in opposition to the pharisees, when, it's likely argument in the way we read it, was culturally accepted and expected, my understanding is in Jewish tradition argument is question and question versus question and answer like is common to this continent. I hope we can at least respect one another instead of correct one another as our Savior is the Messiah regardless of your bend. I welcome PMs from the Hebraic's among us. (drussell52)