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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

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Using blasphemy and justifying it because it creates emotion, do you think God would accept that?

Let's take this back to the original subject for a moment - violence. The Bible is one of the most violent books in history. Should we stay away from the Bible because of its violent content?

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God said don't take the Lords' name in vain, he didn't say why or why not, he said don't do it. It is a commandment.

It's also a commandment not to lie. Would you watch a movie/TV show where someone told a lie?

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Probably a more defensable position is to oppose real violence for entertainment purposes. Most violent sports use violence as a means to an end. Football need not be a violent game. It simply allows violence as a means. The goal is to get the ball to the other end of the field. One could play effeminant football with "Tag your down." and "I'm in line here, you have to go around." as standard techniques in place of tackling and blocking. This would not change the stated goal of the game. However, there really is no way to amend the rules in UFC without changing the stated purpose of the game. For those who don't know, that is to force ones opponent by any means possible to submit or be rendered unconscience.

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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Effeminant UFC would consist of two people talking nonstop at the same time until one submits or collapses from shear boredom. We could call it the (U)ltimate (F)emale (C)onversation, since men wouldn't stand a chance.

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

Let's take this back to the original subject for a moment - violence. The Bible is one of the most violent books in history. Should we stay away from the Bible because of its violent content?

It's also a commandment not to lie. Would you watch a movie/TV show where someone told a lie?

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You have one of the most prominent fighters saying it is violence.

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Blasphemy in movies is blatant toward Christianity

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ORIGINAL: Timcp


No, you shouldn't stay away from the Bible because of the violence because God never used violence as entertainment. The wars of the Bible always showed people that they couldn't fight against God and win. God never fought or destroyed unless needed.

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Blasphemy in movies is blatant toward Christianity, before 1968 it was forbidden. Movies were much more clean. And those characters who told lies, and were immoral were always looked down upon. They weren't glorified like you see today.

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
I'd appreciated some Scripture to back up the claim that violence, not stemming from anger, is sinful.

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ORIGINAL: babbred

I personally wouldn't do it. From the little I've seen of UFC, it's way too violent for me. I mean, at least sports like football have rules. This just looks two gladiators getting it on. But, like I said, that's just me.

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ORIGINAL: Timcp
Look up words synonymous with Martial, you get warlike, military, soldierly etc. Words synonymous with Art are skill, talent. So Martial Art is Warlike Skill. What pro boxing and cage fighting does, is exploiting self defense and the skill that goes along with it; by turning it into a sport, business, and entertainment.

<snip>

You have one of the most prominent fighters saying it is violence. You see how it is used through martial arts for entertainment, sport and a business. When martial arts itself, was always used for self defense. Go to any dojo and they will tell you to not look for a fight, it is the last resort. With mma, or boxing, it is the opposite. The whole thing is setup specifically for fighting to take place.

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ORIGINAL: conan

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
I'd appreciated some Scripture to back up the claim that violence, not stemming from anger, is sinful.

I hope you are not holding your breath. You have made some excellent points. What I think we are facing here is a form of legalism. That is -the creation of a rule of conduct to prevent some sort of transgression that actually has Scriptural support.

Up until a year ago, I was a registered amatuer boxer (just for fun and exercise). From actual experience I have a hard time even thinking of it as violent ...but by definition it is. However there is no malice, just intense competition. Its a sport that by nature forces you to give 100%. There is generally a profound respect and love (storge) for your opponent.

Having said that, I think there is a horroble bias with some. Football, which is highly popular among Christians, is more violent and causes more injury. If you can read lips ...well, football has alot of malicious intent. By comparisson, I would say that "fighting sports" have a far better repitation inside and outside thier profession than does football -which is plagued by off field thug behavior and domestic violence.
I love football -but I hate legalistic Chritianity and imposing one's bias on another.

I wonder ...if we give this fellow our blessing to have a few friends over for a UFC event ...if we should then judge him for how much money was spent on pay per view that could have went to missions.

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ORIGINAL: iluvatar

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ORIGINAL: babbred

I personally wouldn't do it. From the little I've seen of UFC, it's way too violent for me. I mean, at least sports like football have rules. This just looks two gladiators getting it on. But, like I said, that's just me.

UFC does actually have rules and the refs are very good about enforcing them (though some earlier MMA organizations may have been rougher). It may look more gory than other contact sports like boxing or football, but the guys in charge today seem to be very aware of and careful about the potential for serious injury.

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ORIGINAL: Timcp
Look up words synonymous with Martial, you get warlike, military, soldierly etc. Words synonymous with Art are skill, talent. So Martial Art is Warlike Skill. What pro boxing and cage fighting does, is exploiting self defense and the skill that goes along with it; by turning it into a sport, business, and entertainment.

<snip>

You have one of the most prominent fighters saying it is violence. You see how it is used through martial arts for entertainment, sport and a business. When martial arts itself, was always used for self defense. Go to any dojo and they will tell you to not look for a fight, it is the last resort. With mma, or boxing, it is the opposite. The whole thing is setup specifically for fighting to take place.

I'm not going to claim to be some sort of martial arts expert, but it's my understanding that most of the schools in America teach some sort of watered-down or sport-ified (if that's a word) version of the original combat tactics. If you tried to use Tae Kwan Do or Judo against anybody who actually knew how to fight, you'd get destroyed.

If I'm going to learn how to defend myself, I'd rather learn how to do it for real rather than learn how to do some fancy kicks that are only effective in impressing judges. Avoiding the fight is obviously best, but I'd rather be prepared if I need it.

To the OP - I was *this* close to driving up to Sacramento to see Kimbo Slice fight when I was in SF a couple months ago. Watching it on tv later, I'm glad I didn't.

-Dan.

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

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You have one of the most prominent fighters saying it is violence.

Where in Scripture is non-fatal violence, for entertainment, condemned?

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Blasphemy in movies is blatant toward Christianity

No, it's not. It's part of our culture. Sad but true, but just because someone uses God or Christ's name flippantly doesn't mean they are thinking "Yeah, I'm gonna attack the Christian God!", any more then someone uses inappropriate words they are literally thinking of the meaning of that word. It's an exclamation, not intentional blasphemy.
But this is a topic for another thread. : ) Let's get to violence. I'd appreciated some Scripture to back up the claim that violence, not stemming from anger, is sinful.

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Proverbs 28:17 A man that doeth violence to the blood of any person shall flee to the pit; let no man stay him.

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But it is the act that is violent, not the intent.

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Isaiah 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

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But if you search for the word fight in the Bible, it always pertains to war, not for the fun of it. David had to fight enemies to the death.

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To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

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Proverbs 28:17 A man that doeth violence to the blood of any person shall flee to the pit; let no man stay him.

The phrase "to the blood" is important here. It doesn't have to do with the literal spilling of blood - if that were the case, then someone who knocks someone over and makes them scrape their knee would be in some serious trouble! Rather, it means taking someone's life. Last time I checked, nobody here is suggesting killing for sport is a good thing.

Look up the definiton of brawling, you get quarreling which leads to fighting.

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But it is the act that is violent, not the intent.

Do you think police officers are sinning when they forcefully apprehend a criminal?

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Isaiah 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

Isaiah was speaking about a specific group of people, and specific acts of violence which, again, involved death.

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But if you search for the word fight in the Bible, it always pertains to war, not for the fun of it. David had to fight enemies to the death.

Doesn't this kind of undermine your own argument? By saying it was always for war shows that the Bible doesn't really speak about fighting for fun. Or am I missing something?

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To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

This has to do with controlling one's anger, and not expressing it in physical outbursts. It doesn't speak to sparring as a test of skill/for entertainment.

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No Police officers are not guilty of violence. It is their job, they don't do it for fun, but in self defense.

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But it is the act that is violent, not the intent.

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The Bible doesn't speak out about what the Gladiators did in Rome by fighting to the death using their skill and for entertainment. Does that mean it is ok too?

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How about a knife fight in the Octagon for fun and with no intent to kill, that is skillful. Is that ok if two men condone to do it for entertainment?

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Then, why not allow killing either if their isn't hatred in their heart to do so? This is the final frontier that the Romans crossed many years before. So, why condone one degree of fighting but not others? When the Bible doesn't speak against fighting for fun to live another day, nor against fighting for fun to the death?

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It is a pagan custom

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

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No Police officers are not guilty of violence. It is their job, they don't do it for fun, but in self defense.

See, here's my beef. You say that up there, but then you said before -

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But it is the act that is violent, not the intent.

So is it the intent behind the action that's wrong, as you say up there first, or is it the action itself, as you say second?

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The Bible doesn't speak out about what the Gladiators did in Rome by fighting to the death using their skill and for entertainment. Does that mean it is ok too?

The key phrase (which I've highlighted!) is "to the death." Again, nobody here is suggesting entertainment intetionally leading to death is acceptable.

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How about a knife fight in the Octagon for fun and with no intent to kill, that is skillful. Is that ok if two men condone to do it for entertainment?

If they really have no intent to kill, and it's been demonstrated that there isn't a genuine threat of death (anymore so than in, say, the NFL), then sure.

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Then, why not allow killing either if their isn't hatred in their heart to do so? This is the final frontier that the Romans crossed many years before. So, why condone one degree of fighting but not others? When the Bible doesn't speak against fighting for fun to live another day, nor against fighting for fun to the death?

Genesis 9:6. Taking a human life is addressed in Scripture. Fighting for sport is not.

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It is a pagan custom

It is not a pagan custom, any more than aqueducts are a pagan custom. And again, in Rome, it was to the death - clearly seen as wrong in Scripture. Here in America, it is not - not directly addressed in Scripture. Stop comparing the UFC to the Roman gladiators, it is not a fair comparison.

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I really can't understand how you would condone a knife fight.

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Police don't commit violence for the fun. Police have to enforce law and by physical means if necessary, they don't intend to fight and commit violence, they do it in self defense. It isn't the glorification that you see in the UFC where the intention is a violent conflict, and that violence is the fight. Fighting in the Old Testament was for war, never for the fun. UFC/Boxing and Law Enforcement are both violent. But it is the UFC that turns it into a sport, business and entertainment. That is how the UFC glorifies violence. By making something enjoyable for people to watch.

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You say fighting to the death is wrong, but you also say that it is ok to fight with no intention to kill for fun. My point is that the Bible is, if you say the Bible doesn't speak against fighting for fun, well it also doesn't speak against fighting to the death for fun either. So how does Genesis 9:6 speak out about taking life for the fun or for sport? As the Galdiators did? How do you know that doesn't refer to the murder of people as is Cain and Abel?

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Roman Gladiators some times fought to the death but not always fought to the death as is portrayed in movies, the fight was usually stopped at first blood or surrender. (1) UFC fighters submit, or the fight is stopped due to a bloody cut.

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Further, many UFC fighters are prepared to die in the Octagon and go in their knowing that their life is on the line every time they step into the cage.

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Fighting for sport has never been documented in Christian culture. It is documented in Asian Thai Fighting, and goes back to Roman Gladiatorial sports in ancient Italy, how then is Cage fighting not Pagan?

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

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I really can't understand how you would condone a knife fight.

Well, since you don't seem to understand the concept of fighting, not unto death, for sport, then I understand that. And again, it is only if it can be shown that there isn't a demonstrated chance of death. From every knife fight, I doubt that's possible - unless it's done with mock knives.

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Police don't commit violence for the fun. Police have to enforce law and by physical means if necessary, they don't intend to fight and commit violence, they do it in self defense. It isn't the glorification that you see in the UFC where the intention is a violent conflict, and that violence is the fight. Fighting in the Old Testament was for war, never for the fun. UFC/Boxing and Law Enforcement are both violent. But it is the UFC that turns it into a sport, business and entertainment. That is how the UFC glorifies violence. By making something enjoyable for people to watch.

So would you agree that it is the intent, and no the actual act, that is wrong?

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You say fighting to the death is wrong, but you also say that it is ok to fight with no intention to kill for fun. My point is that the Bible is, if you say the Bible doesn't speak against fighting for fun, well it also doesn't speak against fighting to the death for fun either. So how does Genesis 9:6 speak out about taking life for the fun or for sport? As the Galdiators did? How do you know that doesn't refer to the murder of people as is Cain and Abel?

Genesis 9:6 is not in the context of Cain and Abel. It's after the flood - well after many, many subsequent murders, I'm sure. God is laying down the law against murder. Murder is any killing without just cause, or by accident. Sport is not just cause, nor is it accidental. Therefore, killing another human for sport is murder, thus making it wrong.
Taking a human life for any unjust, non-accidental cause is a sin. Scripture is clear on this.
Fighting for sport does not take a life. It does not break the command of Genesis 9:6, nor any other biblical command which I am aware of. If you can demonstrate, from Scripture, where fighting as a test of sport and skill is wrong, please share it.

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Roman Gladiators some times fought to the death but not always fought to the death as is portrayed in movies, the fight was usually stopped at first blood or surrender. (1) UFC fighters submit, or the fight is stopped due to a bloody cut.

And if I knew that Roman Gladiators were going to engage in a match that wouldn't end in death, then I'd be fine attending such an event.

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Further, many UFC fighters are prepared to die in the Octagon and go in their knowing that their life is on the line every time they step into the cage.

Support, please.

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Fighting for sport has never been documented in Christian culture. It is documented in Asian Thai Fighting, and goes back to Roman Gladiatorial sports in ancient Italy, how then is Cage fighting not Pagan?

Chocolate had its origins in Aztec culture, which practiced human sacrifice. Should we abstain from chocolate?
Condemning something for its origins is faulty. If you want to go that route, you had best make sure that the developers of the internet were Christians, or you'll be guilty of using pagan technology.

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ORIGINAL: JoeyWest

UFC is one of the best sports out there. so what if people fight. have you ever been in a fight?

for someone to be wrong because they take a talent, and use it? oh please. I love UFC. have since UFC 1 way back in the day. I am a lvl 3 combatives instructor in army